Hammers vs. Foreheads: Pounding needs, driving questions...
I've heard lots of rationale against using OOP in CF applications, and I've even resisted it myself, perhaps because of peer pressure if for no other reason. I've heard it asserted that OOP "makes no sense" and that "simple questions are impossible to answer." But, if you understand it, if you reach out to grasp new concepts, you realize: OOP isn't about non-logic. OOP isn't about procedure. And purposed code isn't reusable.
We can debate this ad-nauseum, but I have learned enough to know that OOP is the future of CF unless want it to stay in the limited-run, limited-traffic site category. Having recently made the transition from PP to OOP, I can only say with conviction: It's a subtle, but essential shift that's the only vehicle to enterprise-class applications.
"Applications" being the key word. Understanding the transformation of CF from a tool to quickly create dynamic WEBSITES to a tool that can do that as well as create full-steam-ahead enterprise-class web APPLICATIONS is where we as a community go wrong. But a database-enabled website is not a web application, and if we're going to develop more and more applications we need to adopt standards and practices that have proved, repeatedly, to empower applications and the people that create them.
We can, and should, still use the old methods for situations where they're appropriate. Absolutely no argument there. For a simple, straightforward site that displays data on pseudo-static pages and with limited traffic I'm perfectly content to consider the old-school CF development style. However, after having seen commercial site after commercial site start in CF (probably because it was so strongly touted as a RAD tool, and comparitively inexpensive) and almost as quickly show up converted to ASP, Java, even Perl or PHP, I am tired of watching CF get a black eye every time I turn around.
It's design and architecture that cause these sites to fail, not the language, and yet CF is often blamed for these failures. And now that the underpinnings of everything we do are Java-based, and we can apply the full power of Java's core libraries to our development, if we simply implement the most powerful new tools at our disposal we can engage our profession in greater and greater projects.
I suppose what it boils down to is a shift away from something I read by Ben Forta. I can't recall the source, but Ben expressed the idea that CFers aren't programmers... they're developers. At the time, he was right. Now, it's much less true. But the beauty of CF is the fact that those who choose to can remain developers... and those who choose to evolve beyond that and begin to forge ahead in the "New Context" can do that too. We can now, with a fair degree of ease, become programmers.
I'm not going to, nor would I at any point in the foreseeable future, say that PP no longer has a place, nor that the only good site is one built on FuseBox or MachII or any other particular framework. But, to say that OO and CF should never be mixed, or to assert that we shouldn't apply the vast amount of information available from millions of man-hours of reasearch into enterprise software development is equally as short sighted.
So, while I absolutely respect the skills of those who are proficient in CF and the amount of knowledge and skill they have in applying CF to solutions, I utterly diagree with the idea that PP is better for CF, and would even go so far as to say I think it's a fairly irresponsible position. At the very least it's completely unfair and one-sided. Then again, we get to express the counterpoint and it gets us hits to our blogs. Perhaps it's a challenge, to me (as the new OOP evangelist in the Minneapolis CFUG), to prove the point, and make OO more logical and less confusing. I'll do my best, I promise.
Laterz!
posted by Jared @ 4:13 PM
38 Comments:
First of all thank for your hard work getting the word out about OOP in CF. I have been interested in OOP since a speech by Hal Helms at the CFUN03 conference. I have started projects with an OOP business model but have yet to use it in a project. I guess there is just a leap of faith of sorts that is needed. Your blog has given me that inspiration again to Just Do It.
I wanted say something about Ben Forta's comment. Usually when I hear a similar comment as his it is in the context of someone starting as just a programmer and becoming a software developer/engineer. From his comment I would have assumed this is what he meant (developer GT programmer). That most CFers are not just programmers but they actually develop entire web applications. I can understand how you could have taken it as "most CFers are just website developer, not programmers" or something like that (developer LT programmer). Maybe you are absolutely right about his comment -- I just wanted to throw out the way I perceive a comment like that. :)
I think the reason I perceive that comment that way is due to the talk by Hal at CFUN03 where he encouraged everyone to become software developers/engineers. That programming jobs can be exported to lower wage workers but not as easily a software developer's job.
Dan,
Thanks for leaving the note... I like notes! *g*
That comment from Ben was made several years ago, back in the CF5 days. Back in the day, CF didn't really have the necessary parts to allow its developer base to "do what programmers do," so to speak. We used tags to run against a scripting engine, and while we were able to build frameworks to one degree or another, we still didn't really have the core functionality to really work as programmers.
I don't fault Ben in any way, what he said really helped clarify our role as CFers, and really helped make sense of our place in the web development community at large. It was a good thing... then. My fear is that now, since many developed an attitude of "I use CF because I can be a developer, I don't have to be a programmer to do it and it's better that way. I can be more effective with less work."
My fear is that people have linked some ideas that, if left unchecked, could be detrimental to CF in general. What have they linked? Well... to continue in CFSpeak... hehe:
developer.setType("CF");
programmer.setType("Java");
if (isBetter(developer,programmer) EQ true) {
developer.setEasier(true);
developer.setOO(false);
developer.setFaster(true);
while (programmer.getWork() GT developer.getWork()) {
developer.setJava(false);
developer.setUseCFOO(false);
developer.setStyle("procedural","always");
}
}
developer.expandSkillset();
Error: expandSillset(): Class developer instance variable "style" conflicts with core expandSkillset objectives.
See what I mean?
Then again, this is based on my gut feeling, and the fact that I've felt resistance to OO in my local CF community. Perhaps I overstate the issue, but I see it elsewhere and can only assume that it's a fairly pervasive issue.
However, I'm up for the challenge, and plan to start on the local CFUG in February... education is the greatest weapon against misinformation, right?
Laterz,
J
I think it was just a semantic difference that got me confused about his comment. I hear developer and think software developer. Anyways...I agree that there seems to be lots of resistance.
I have resisted a bit because:
1) It takes some extra effort to learn something new but more so for me the problem is actually using something new and better over something that is familiar and worked well ehough in the past. I like to learn but I usually take the easy way out and don't use my new knowledge very quickly. I was sooo close to using OOP for a project a year ago (model nearly complete) but bailed and just used PP when it was time to decide and get some work done.
2) My boss is a pure PP man (hehe) and will resist OOP. He resists anything new. Luckily he doesn't supervise me much because he is usually too busy (pres of small company) so most of the time I can do whatever I want to do. There is always a fear though during code review (rarely ever happens) or I happen to ask his opinion on something that he'll go "what the f@ck is this?". In that situation I just plan on handing him a book (ex-OO Technology: A Managers Guide) and telling him to read it.
A few random thoughts:
"And purposed code isn't reusable."
All code is precisely as reusable as you make it. And reusability is only as big a priority as you need it to be.
"OOP is the future of CF unless want it to stay in the limited-run, limited-traffic site category."
OOP has nothing to do with a site's ability to handle traffic. It would be very, very easy to build a neatly packaged series of CFCs that bring a site to its knees.
"But a database-enabled website is not a web application..."
Sure it is. Heck, a website without a database and a smattering of Javascript may be an application. The Web itself is an application, if you ask the folks at the W3C.
Anonymous,
You make a valid point. I shouldn't have said "purposed code is not reusable."
I should have said "And the more purposed code is, the more reusable it is." Hence, well designed OO code using high cohesion and low coupling isn't dependent on my ability to "make it" anything. It is what it is by nature, and that means that it's intrinsically reusable.
And yeah, code reuse isn't that important. Until you consider the fact that if you reuse good code created with good design it becomes ever more reliable as it's debugged, troubleshoot(ed?), and improved. Your time invested goes down, your quality goes up... it's a good deal. You should try it.
As for the semantics of my use of the word "application," I would think the entry would have provided its own context. The W3C's academic concept of what defines an "application" is... in classic OO terms, "abstract." I was using the term in a vernacular sense, and as it applies to the concept of a "web application" versus a "website," a point which, apparently, you missed entirely.
Alas...
Allow me to draw you a parallel. Once I did a site for AAA to support a sweepstakes they were running. A couple forms, session variables to track answers to the forms... no biggie. 5 pages and a text file to capture answers and that was it. Guaranteed not to change once it was done, and it didn't. No sweat. Would I, confronted with the same situation today, pull up Together, write use cases, create class diagrams and sequences? Probably not. Although I might... one never knows.
Today, I have a client for whom I've written an enterprise-class application that handles 1500 users, 6 roles and the various access privileges of each, and, since I own the source, I plan to market to other organizations in the same industry. At the moment, it's a procedural app written with CFCs. So do I plan to restructure everything based on OO methods? Hell yeah I do! Why? Because as I add features and recreate the interface for each individual client I want the flexibility that an OO design implicitly provides.
And, finally, "a neatly packed series of CFCs" is a drastic misrepresentation of OO. OO is not CFCs, and it's not a series of anything. OO models the basic units of work within a sytem and those things which connect them. OO is language, platform, and framework independent. OO is a world-view, a way to look at a problem and architect a cohesive solution. The whole problem. And the whole solution, plus anything that comes after it. CFCs aren't OO. Like I said, I just finished the beta version of an application that is written entirely in CFCs and is still entirely procedural. If your system is brought to it's knees it's probably due to poor design, an surge in traffic, or some other unexpected factor.
Mind you I've never said OO is perfect. Any system that involves people will be implicitly imperfect. In fact, often what we see as perfect in a system becomes that which is later discovered to be it's downfall. All I'm saying is that OO, in this context, gives a project an edge if the people involved know what they're doing.
I'm an OO enthusiast (even the name of the blog says that), so it only makes sense that I'm going to support the ideals and principles of OO design. I see it as beneficial, and if nothing else, as one more tool in my toolbox. I've learned and am still learning OO, and I know procedural, and while I prefer OO because there are so many *implicit* benefits, I have the ability to do both. Those who reject OO out-of-hand, however, don't. Therefore, I ask you, who benefits more: the guy who learns how to use all appropriate tools to his advantage, or the guy who refuses to learn to use a hammer because his forehead is good enough?
And since I can't really tell where you're coming from in your comment and didn't leave any way to be contacted for clarification, I'll add one final comment. This is one guy's blog, and as I'm that guy I feel rather inclined to say what I think. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you don't like it but feel compelled to read it so we have something to argue about, find a Yahoo group. If you really want to think thru what's said here and have discussions... that's cool!
Anyway... I got work to do, so it's time to say:
Laterz!
"And yeah, code reuse isn't that important."
You're sarcastically agreeing with something I didn't assert.
Code reuse in the game development industry (the PC side, at least) has generally been frowned upon. You don't optimize performance by recycling old code. Meanwhile, there are banks that are essentially "reusing" mission-critical COBOL code written in 1981, for precisely the reasons you state. It's all about the priorities of a project or developer, not reusability itself.
"I was using the term in a vernacular sense, and as it applies to the concept of a 'web application' versus a 'website,' a point which, apparently, you missed entirely."
I didn't miss it... I disagreed with it. You've crafted a distinction without a difference.
"Mind you I've never said OO is perfect."
No, you didn't. But you repeatedly implied that there was some correlation between procedural CFML and (1) apps that don't scale with traffic, (2) unevolved minds. I consider that misinformation in the first case, and a needlessly divisive viewpoint in the second.
"Those who reject OO out-of-hand..."
I don't reject OO out-of-hand, foot, or any other appendage. :) I have very focused needs that don't involve OOP, but my needs are hardly universal. For many people or projects, OOP is fantastic, and it's great that folks are exploring ways to bring that to CF.
"...didn't leave any way to be contacted..."
A boo-boo tied to my annoyance with Blogger.
"If you don't like it, don't read it."
Wow, that's pointlessly defensive. I disagreed with you on one day, about one post. I may agree with you tomorrow, about another. It's not an all-or-nothing scenario, this blogging thing.
--
Roger Benningfield
http://admin.mxblogspace.journurl.com/
Hey, Roger...
Now we at least talk since you have a name. Thank you.
#1: I'm a sarcastic guy... some hate it, some love it.
#2: Thanks for your diagreement. I disagree back. We have an infinite loop. < cfbreak > There, that's fixed.
#3: You have summarized my feelings well in this case... I truly do correlate poor performance and poor design when it comes to enterprise-class applications. Sorry for the impression of "unevolved minds" and as you see I have renamed the entry.
#4: OK, so OO can be a better answer to some problems, but doesn't directly correlate into performance gains or maintainabililty... I think that's what you're saying... is it? My question is this: can you use it? Have you invested time and study in OO? In that case, what's to be debated here?
#5: A booboo which I appreciate having corrected.
#6: No, a blunt statement of fact. I didn't open the blog to invite contentious, pointless debate into my life. If you read the whole paragraph you'll see that I'm saying "I can tell where you're coming from... does this guy have something worthwhile to say or is he just being a pain in the remote location? If you're just here to argue... about dumb stuff... then don't be here." Not defensive, not at all... just not willing to waste my time.
Which, btw, since I've responded, should tell you I don't think this is a waste of time. Yay... now let's all go roll thru the tall grass and pet the pretty ponies.
And if I could type...
The following is a correction to #6 in my last comment on this thread:
#6: No, a blunt statement of fact. I didn't open the blog to invite contentious, pointless debate into my life. If you read the whole paragraph you'll see that I'm saying "I CANNOT tell where you're coming from... does this guy have something worthwhile to say or is he just being a pain in the remote location? If you're just here to argue... about dumb stuff... then don't be here." Not defensive, not at all... just not willing to waste my time."
Because you used out-of-context snippets, which I see used as a tactic on lists to provoke stupid arguments, I wasn't sure of your intent. Therefore I simply said if you want to argue get out of my face. If you want to discuss, then fine... who are you in that case? Somehow that doesn't strike me as defensive.
I feel like the OOP vs PP is another needless addition to the list of endless debates. You may remember me from previous discussions such as
CF vs .NET / the world
Fusebox 4 vs Mach II
Fusebox vs Proprietary Frameworks
Frameworks vs Straight coding
When are we all just going to get along? I started CF writing code I couldn't easily extend after a month because it was very disparate and unstructured. I learned Fusebox 2/3 and found a more comforting place for any apps I had to maintain but still, to this day, write spaghetti mini tools to generate sprocs etc. I moved on to Fusebox 4 and find even more comfort in the code architecture it provides. I picked up OO at Uni with Eiffel and then picked up Java before attempting CFCs and I truly see some benefit for certain projects.
I believe there is no panacea for CF Developers and learning one tool doesn't inherently make your code more or less scalable than another - it's the quality of the coder's mind which makes the difference between a crappy implementation of a good idea and one which is truly inspired. I've seen examples of good and bad code in all of the development approaches I've mentioned above.
The point of my rambling essay style comment is that a coder is likely to produce better code in a tool they are comfortable with since they truly understand it than one they feel compelled to use. Consequently a coder is more likely to be familiar with alternative, optimal ways of accomplishing a task if they feel at ease with the framework.
Adam...
I see your point. A coder and an architect/designer are different things, though. PP and OO aren't coding paradigms, they're design and architecture.
I hope to be able to make some folks more comfortable in OO and thus elevate it's adoption. Hence the blog, so as to communicate my recent insights in the hope that someone else can "get it" too. I don't know, maybe all this time I've been an architect when I thought I was a coder rather than vice versa...
I'm sure that at some point the commentary here will wane, because OO won't be something brand-new and cool to me and I'll settle in to other things. For now, it ain't that way.
Anyway, thanks for the comments. Talk atcha later.
Roger,
As I mull your comments, I begin to understand a bit better. I see where you were questioning specific assertions rather than just debating pointlessly. I got you a bit wrong at first for several reasons, but I understand a bit better now.
Anyway, just wanted to thank you for your input. You've given me stuff to think about.
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I have not seen any practical evidence for OOP being better. In fact, the claimed benefits are not even consistent. Some say it is about reuse, others say "change management", and many are very elusive and round-a-bout. But they all fail to provide specific evidence. Most examples of OO being grand are from the systems software domain. I have not seen any good examples for the business domain. The way "interfaces" change is different for biz software than systems software. Systems software can have their OOP, just provide evidence in our domain before barrowing their approach. I have a right to demand evidence before being forced into goofy fads. Give me code proof, not brochures.
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Please, clean out the spam.
I'd like to see a code shoot-out. The best procedural/relational programmers versus the best OOP programmers. A representative sample app is formulated and let's see what each group produces and then explain why theirs is the better one using requirements change scenarios etc.
I'm skeptical of heavy use of OOP, but I'd like to be shown otherwise. Show me OOP being good in something besides a toy texbook example with animals and device drivers. I'm not a zoo programmer.
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